The Big Picture: ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here!

Published 2022-11-11; 1:14:18 by the feed.

As extracted (engineer-sonnet-2026-10-13)

The extraction calls the show “The Big Picture (The Ringer)” and the episode “'Black Panther: Wakanda Forever' Is Here!”.

Hosts: Sean Fennessey, Amanda Dobbins. Guests: Van Lathan.

Subject films: Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022).

On the transcript: No speaker labels; Van Lathan is the guest, hosts Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins, mostly distinguished by who loved it (Van) versus who did not. Ads and the Ringer promos are baked in and skipped; many comic-book names are phonetically mangled.

Added from the extractor's memory, not said

Films that came up

subject (1)

Black Panther: Wakanda Forever

compared (17)

Black Panther · Tenet · Interstellar · Inception · Troy · Captain America: Civil War · Iron Man 2 · Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness · Avatar · Avatar: The Way of Water · Avengers: Infinity War · Avengers: Endgame · Captain America: The Winter Soldier · Spider-Man: No Way Home · Game of Thrones (TV series) · Thor: Love and Thunder · Thor: Ragnarok

passing (6)

Loki (TV series) · Ironheart (TV series) · Nomadland · Eternals · Thunderbolts · Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania

recommended (4)

Clash of the Titans (Harry Hamlin version, the original) · Clash of the Titans (Sam Worthington version) · Madhouse · Werewolf by Night

dismissed (1)

House of the Dragon (TV series)

anecdote (4)

Raising Arizona · The Godfather · The Godfather Part II · Working Girl

Claims (30)

  1. people (performance): Tenoch Huerta → Black Panther: Wakanda Forever. Amanda says Huerta is really dynamic as Namor, and the film picks up once he emerges as the main rival.
    “is really dynamic.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:09:13 · Amanda Dobbins (0.65 sure it was them)
  2. lineage (sequel theme): Black Panther: Wakanda Forever → Black Panther. The first film's theme was isolation versus justice (Killmonger vs. T'Challa); the sequel has a real-world theme too, about allyship between Latinx and Black communities, but is not done as well.
    “his movies always have a big dynamic real world theme in them in a way that I don't think many Marvel movies do.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:17:32 · Sean Fennessey (0.85 sure it was them)
  3. unmapped (demanding-film grace): Black Panther: Wakanda Forever → Interstellar. Van notes Interstellar asks viewers to grasp relativity and singularity, yet nobody balks at it the way they do at Infinity Stones.
    “And he's asking you to understand relatively relativity, singularity, and all of these things.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:21:29 · Van Lathan (0.80 sure it was them)
  4. unmapped (demanding-film grace): Black Panther: Wakanda Forever → Tenet. Van argues audiences give Nolan films like Tenet grace for demanding hard work that comic book movies do not get.
    “I think that there's a grace that we give to quote unquote, serious films or real films.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:21:48 · Van Lathan (0.85 sure it was them)
  5. unmapped (demanding-film grace): Black Panther: Wakanda Forever → Inception. Van says many people love Inception without understanding it, yet comic book movies are not given the same pass.
    “I know a lot of people who loved inception.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:21:54 · Van Lathan (0.80 sure it was them)
  6. unmapped (mythology): Black Panther: Wakanda Forever → Clash of the Titans. Sean suggests Amanda could watch Namor's Mayan mythology the way she might watch Greek-myth movies like Clash of the Titans or Troy.
    “is there any like suspension of disbelief where you could watch it the same way you might watch Clash of the Titans or Troy, you know?”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:26:02 · Sean Fennessey (0.75 sure it was them)
  7. unmapped (mythology): Black Panther: Wakanda Forever → Troy. Sean pairs Troy with Clash of the Titans as myth-based movies that ask for the same suspension of disbelief.
    “you might watch Clash of the Titans or Troy, you know?”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:26:02 · Sean Fennessey (0.75 sure it was them)
  8. theme (ancestral plane parallel): Black Panther: Wakanda Forever → Black Panther. Van explains that in the first film T'Challa saw his father on the ancestral plane because he had questions for him, while Shuri saw Killmonger because she wanted revenge, the same motive Killmonger had.
    “Shuri did not want to be the Black Panther to protect Wakanda.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:32:14 · Van Lathan (0.85 sure it was them)
  9. unmapped (backdoor pilot): Black Panther: Wakanda Forever → Ironheart. Amanda feels the Riri Williams plot turns the movie into a backdoor pilot for the Ironheart show, which weighs down an already crowded film.
    “the movie also simultaneously kind of becomes like a backdoor pilot for the Ironheart TV show.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:35:38 · Amanda Dobbins (0.85 sure it was them)
  10. theme (character introduction): Black Panther: Wakanda Forever → Captain America: Civil War. Van says Black Panther was handled better in Civil War than in his own movie, and that Civil War served as his origin; Ironheart's introduction here does not land the same way.
    “Black Panther, to me, was portrayed better in Civil War than he was in the original Black Panther movie.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:37:09 · Van Lathan (0.85 sure it was them)
  11. theme (character introduction): Black Panther: Wakanda Forever → Iron Man 2. Van says the MCU has introduced characters inside other movies before, like Black Widow in Iron Man 2.
    “Black Widow makes her a parent, her 1st appearance.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:37:22 · Van Lathan (0.80 sure it was them)
  12. theme (teen character problem): Black Panther: Wakanda Forever → Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness. Sean sees Riri Williams as the second recent puckish teen hero, after America Chavez, whom the audience has no prior relationship with.
    “we just had this with America Chavez in Doctor Strange in the multiverse of Madness.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:38:18 · Amanda Dobbins (0.60 sure it was them)
  13. unmapped (runtime): Black Panther: Wakanda Forever → Black Panther. The sequel runs 2:41 against the original's 2:12, which Amanda reads as the film trying to do too much.
    “it's 2 hours and 41 minutes for a reason because they're trying to do too much.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:39:26 · Amanda Dobbins (0.80 sure it was them)
  14. unmapped (CGI weakness): Black Panther: Wakanda Forever → Black Panther. The first film's video-game-looking CGI showdown is doubled down on in the sequel, with flying robots and an aircraft-carrier fight.
    “You know, it just kind of looked like a video game a little bit.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:46:42 · Amanda Dobbins (0.70 sure it was them)
  15. unmapped (CGI standard): Black Panther: Wakanda Forever → Avatar: The Way of Water. Amanda guesses the upcoming Avatar will look a thousand times better than the sequel's underwater CGI.
    “I guarantee you we're going to see Avatar in a couple weeks and it's going to look a 1000 times better.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:47:06 · Amanda Dobbins (0.80 sure it was them)
  16. unmapped (blue people / underwater): Black Panther: Wakanda Forever → Avatar. Amanda could not stop thinking of Avatar because it is another Disney underwater saga with blue people.
    “I mean, it's an underwater saga from the Disney corporation.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:47:22 · Sean Fennessey (0.60 sure it was them)
  17. unmapped (time and resources): James Cameron → Black Panther: Wakanda Forever. Van says Cameron spends 13 years on one franchise, so his film will look better than a Marvel release.
    “one movie, this guy's working 13 years on it.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:49:41 · Van Lathan (0.70 sure it was them)
  18. craft (action craft): Russo Brothers → Captain America: Civil War. Van credits the Russos as experts at MCU action, better at it than directors of the other movies.
    “Yeah, like in the movies and there's a very, you know, what the Russo's do for the MCU, it's not easy to do that, right?”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:50:31 · Van Lathan (0.70 sure it was them)
  19. people (director mismatch): Chloe Zhao → Eternals. Van says Zhao is a fantastic director, but a big fight between celestial beings may not suit her, as with Marvel hiring auteurs.
    “But that doesn't mean that a big fight between celestial beans is going to be her cup of tea.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:51:08 · Van Lathan (0.70 sure it was them)
  20. craft (craft praise): Ruth E. Carter → Black Panther: Wakanda Forever. Amanda says Carter's costume design and the production design are the electrifying part, even though she did not like the film, and that Carter should win another Oscar.
    “I think Ruth Carter should win another Oscar, even though I didn't really like this movie.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:53:03 · Amanda Dobbins (0.80 sure it was them)
  21. craft (craft): Beachler → Black Panther. The first film's production design and Ruth Carter's costumes kept it in one coherent Afrofuturist look, which the sequel lacks.
    “in part because of the Ruth Carter costume design, had a beach or production design.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:53:28 · Sean Fennessey (0.70 sure it was them)
  22. craft (visual coherence): Black Panther: Wakanda Forever → Black Panther. The first film lived in one coherent Wakanda look from Ruth Carter's costumes and the production design, while the sequel hops between many places and loses a single visual style.
    “In this movie, we're in so many places, that ship at night, Riri's dorm room, Talakan, Everett Ross's jogging trip, his kitchen, the movie's just all over the place.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:53:45 · Sean Fennessey (0.70 sure it was them)
  23. unmapped (action set piece): Black Panther: Wakanda Forever → Black Panther. Amanda rewatched the first film's casino fight, built around Okoye, and found nothing in the sequel as exciting.
    “I really loved the casino fight. I think that's like a really great action set piece.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:55:45 · Amanda Dobbins (0.80 sure it was them)
  24. unmapped (final fight): Black Panther: Wakanda Forever → Spider-Man: No Way Home. Van names the Marvel third-act problem and cites No Way Home as a movie that is all about its final fight.
    “The whole movie is for the final fight.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:58:25 · Van Lathan (0.70 sure it was them)
  25. unmapped (succession story): Black Panther: Wakanda Forever → Game of Thrones. Sean says a version centered on who should rule Wakanda is the kind of heir story Game of Thrones told expertly, though not House of the Dragon.
    “Game of Thrones was very good at posing who should be the heir.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 1:06:00 · Sean Fennessey (0.85 sure it was them)
  26. unmapped (Marvel peak): Black Panther: Wakanda Forever → Avengers: Endgame. Sean asks whether Endgame was the crowning achievement and everything since has been scattered fan service.
    “Is there a part of you that's like Endgame was actually was the crowning achievement”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 1:09:59 · Sean Fennessey (0.70 sure it was them)
  27. unmapped (Marvel malaise): Black Panther: Wakanda Forever → Thor: Love and Thunder. Van says Marvel films are now parodies of themselves, citing Thor: Love and Thunder as a spoof of Ragnarok.
    “Some of these films are almost parodies of themselves.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 1:11:23 · Van Lathan (0.80 sure it was them)
  28. unmapped (self-parody): Thor: Love and Thunder → Thor: Ragnarok. Van says Love and Thunder is a spoof of Ragnarok and that Waititi likely knew it.
    “is like a spoof of Thor Ragnarok.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 1:11:29 · Van Lathan (0.80 sure it was them)
  29. unmapped (restraint): Captain America: The Winter Soldier → Black Panther: Wakanda Forever. Van says Winter Soldier was a sleek comic book spy thriller doing less, which the current audience demand for cameos and jokes would make impossible now.
    “Captain America Winter Soldier was less.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 1:12:05 · Van Lathan (0.80 sure it was them)
  30. unmapped (small-scale Marvel): Werewolf by Night → Black Panther: Wakanda Forever. Van says Werewolf by Night is the kind of fantastic small Marvel piece that ends up on Disney+, while Sean wishes there were more reading-an-issue movies like it.
    “the good stuff like werewolf by night, which was fantastic.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 1:12:24 · Van Lathan (0.80 sure it was them)

Fun items (17)

  1. fun, about Namor: Van rattles off Namor as one of the oldest Marvel characters, an indicator of cool who does cool, unsavory things, including trying to have sex with Sue Storm in the Fantastic Four.
    “Namor is trying to have sex with Sue Storm.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:10:02 · Van Lathan (0.70 sure it was them)
  2. fun, about Black Panther: Wakanda Forever: Before the screening Sean tells Amanda the IMAX holding poster shows Namor and promises she will learn a lot about him.
    “Sean was just like, cool, okay, you're going to learn a lot about Neymar.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:12:39 · Amanda Dobbins (0.70 sure it was them)
  3. fun, about Marvel Comics: Van's pitch for comics: reading X-Men at nine taught him telekinesis, and the books keep upping the ante conceptually, so why can't MCU fans accept Infinity Stones; Loki then made them inert.
    “I always encourage kids to read comic books because it flings your mind forward.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:14:33 · Van Lathan (0.85 sure it was them)
  4. fun, about Black Panther: Wakanda Forever: Amanda says she was out when the whales floated in and Namor talked to the animals.
    “I think when the whales started floating through to do whatever the whales did is when I was like, oh, all right, okay.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:16:40 · Amanda Dobbins (0.80 sure it was them)
  5. fun, about Namor / Black Panther: Wakanda Forever: Van says comic fans watched the trailer to see if Namor got his winged feet; without them, he says, fraud.
    “I've been doing this since 1987 fraud.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:23:22 · Van Lathan (0.70 sure it was them)
  6. fun, about Clash of the Titans: Argument over Clash of the Titans, the Harry Hamlin original versus the Sam Worthington remake, with a side note that Hamlin is Lisa Rinna's husband.
    “Harry Hamlin's like incredibly handsome.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:26:39 · Sean Fennessey (0.50 sure it was them)
  7. fun, about Black Panther: Wakanda Forever: Van says that during the funeral scenes he kept wondering whether Angela Bassett's and Shuri's tears were real, since Boseman really died.
    “I'm like, is she really crying?”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:40:54 · Van Lathan (0.80 sure it was them)
  8. fun, about Lake Bell: Fan theory relayed by Van: Lake Bell's character was meant to serve a bigger villain and survive for a post-credits talk, but that was cut late, leaving a recognizable actor killed in one scene.
    “you have a really recognizable act actress who's been working for a very long time, shows up and gets killed in one scene and you're like, why was she in this?”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:44:13 · Van Lathan (0.75 sure it was them)
  9. fun, about Avatar: Van says he goes into Avatar and falls into wonderment, saying 'ooh' at the Na'vi and unobtanium, before getting into the mech-suit fight with Jake Sully.
    “So I go into Avatar and I just fall into wonderment.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:48:43 · Van Lathan (0.85 sure it was them)
  10. fun, about Talokan: Van mocks the underwater kingdom: they have their own sports, throwing a ball through a ring of jets.
    “They're throwing a ball through a circle of like the jets.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:52:12 · Van Lathan (0.60 sure it was them)
  11. fun, about Black Panther: Sean says Black Panther built a whole country so well that a Marvel movie got nominated for best picture.
    “they fucking nominated a Marvel movie for best picture.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:54:21 · Sean Fennessey (0.70 sure it was them)
  12. fun, about Atuma: Van loves Atuma, an Atlantean who thinks he should rule, beating Okoye after they try to rescue Riri, and jokes Atuma gives her the Bane Bruce Wayne treatment.
    “And he gives her the bang Bruce Wayne treatment.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:56:59 · Van Lathan (0.70 sure it was them)
  13. fun, about Marvel final fights: Van compares Marvel final fights to Russell Westbrook, a low-percentage shooter; some are fantastic and some are eh.
    “They're the Russell Westbrook of final fights.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 0:58:00 · Van Lathan (0.75 sure it was them)
  14. fun, about Divine Love Konadu-Sun: The surprise ending child is called the vibranium of child actors, and Sean later says the actor's name is one of the greatest he has heard.
    “he's the vibranium of child actors.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 1:01:25 · Van Lathan (0.50 sure it was them)
  15. fun, about Black Panther: Wakanda Forever: Van's all-time top five: Raising Arizona, Madhouse (with John Larroquette), The Godfather, The Godfather Part II, and at number one Wakanda Forever.
    “Number four, Madhouse with John Larroquit.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 1:08:58 · Van Lathan (0.90 sure it was them)
  16. fun, about Working Girl: After Van gives his top five, a host complains Working Girl is missing and calls it an all-time spiritual favorite for both hosts, then riffs on Alec Baldwin popping in and out.
    “It's been, we've talked about this before.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 1:09:35 · Amanda Dobbins (0.50 sure it was them)
  17. fun, about Marvel / Quantumania: Van promises to turn Amanda into Amanda back issue Dobbins with weekly Zoom comics lessons before next summer.
    “You're about to be Amanda back issue Dobbins.”
    The Big Picture · ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here! · 1:13:25 · Van Lathan (0.60 sure it was them)

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